Autor Tópico: FFB - Sim é muito complicado  (Lida 5028 vezes)

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Offline Tiago Fortuna

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FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« em: Maio 08, 2015, 13: 51 »
Porque a info ja anda demasiado dispersa.

Ficam aqui umas dicas iniciais que devem servir para qualquer volante:

Antes de qualquer alteracao verifiquem que o FFB esta' a 100. Este valor é para ficar assim SEMPRE

Depois, verifiquem que o Tyre Force esta a 50 e vao subindo. Aqui o importante e' nao ter clipping. Alguns volantes vao parecer nao ter ffb com isto a 50 outros um pouco mais e ha clipping a a torto e a direito.

O passo seguinte é alterar os valores abaixo para o que esta indicado:

Relative Adjust Gain: 1.10
Relative Adjust Bleed: 0.10
Relative Adjust Clamp: 0.95

Outro parametro MUITO importante é o Deadzone Removal Range. Infelizmente, este e' um valor que deve ser testado por cada um de vos para ser exato (app do Wheelcheck; testar o valor "Min Force" umas vezes e tirar a media).

De qualquer maneira os Logitechs podem comecar com ~0.20, os CSW nao devem precisar ou entao algo muito baixo como 0.0x) e os TMs infelizmente nao tenho qualquer indicacao mas ~0.10 deve ser bom ponto de partida.

Para quem tiver um CSWv2 e APENAS para o pCARS, sugiro o DRI:OFF em vez de DRI:3. Com esta alteração é preciso fazer configurar os parametros abaixo no pCARS (isto sao settings meus. se nao gostarem, voltem a por de origem)

Per Wheel Movement: -0.07 (sim e' negativo)
Per Wheel Movement Sqared: 0.02
Wheel Position Smoothing: 0.01

/edit - tive feedback que estes setting acima tb resultam num melhor ffb no cswv1. Se quiserem tentar... (dri: off e tyreforce a 100 para o cswv1 e ate talvez mais. Verifiquem na telemetria)

|    EXTRA Para quem tiver paciencia :p     (obg Luis Branco por desencantar isto na WMD)        |

First things first:
1) Delete your profile
2) Delete any FFB folder and all the FFB related .xml files you may have installed (like Jack Spade's or somebody else's FFB tweakers)
3) Start the game
4) Calibrate your wheel and pedals (make sure you calibrate the wheel to read exactly 900 degrees of rotation)
5) Always test the changes (one at a time!) on track, with HUD FFB meter visible.
6) Pick a good track for FFB feedback. Oulton Park is one favorite for me for good FFB feel. Different tracks might require different FFB settings for the absolute best feel.
Good to know:
- Make sure you exit the menu and then immediately exit the whole controller preferences menu again to guarantee that the settings are saved.
- There might be a bug that causes the Calibrate Force Feedback parameters to reset when you start pCars again. So might need to set them every time you restart the game, if the values keep changing (keep an eye for this).
- If you're using a logitech wheel, it is worth exploring using a strength value between 95-100 in the profiler (preferably in the main settings), the common value of 107% causes substantial non-linearity to the FFB. Even if it might feel like a higher than 100 value on the profiler cures some of a possible "center dead zone" issue, it also has a big negative impact on the FFB detail you're going to have while cornering. There are better ways to avoid possible weak center feel.
- I use an old G25. Still golden

Available parameters, and my interpretation of their meaning (correct me if I'm off, these descriptions are intentionally only based on the feel I've gotten out of them, not anything out of devs mouths):


    (B1) force feedback - Overall strength level. Set this first, it's a good idea to leave some adjustment room if you want later come back to this. Imo anything between 80-95 is a good starting point and still allows you to go higher after everything else is done.


    (B2) tire force - how strongly the forces the tire feels are transmitted to the FFB. Set this as the second thing, for a basic FFB tuning anything between 100 - 130 is fine.
    (B3) per wheel movement - negative value will make rotating the wheel easier against forces. A positive value will add "friction" to the wheel movement, so even if there is not a substantial pure tire force being felt as a "resistance" on the steering wheel, you will feel one. This should imo be a parameter you could tweak individually per car.



    (B4) master scale - A value that will multiply the individual scales. Useful tip: Using a low master scale and correspondingly making the individual scales higher will make the FFB feel less "rattly", but at the same time you will lose a bit of sharpness, so there is a golden middle point somewhere. Using a high Master scale and low individual scales is another option, but you will get a lot of rattling/spikes on the FFB. On some cars/tires this can be a useful trick though.
    (B6) Fx scale (longitudinal forces) - Unless you use really much of this, you will mainly notice this as an added "noise" on the FFB when you hit kerbs etc. Higher amounts of Fx will make the steering wheel counter steer automatically against the slide, but will also make the steering movement on normal cornering feel heavier.
    (B7) Fy scale (lateral forces) - You feel this mainly as a force that acts against your steering movement. Very easy to use too much and over saturate the feel making the FFB feel dull.
    (B8) Fz scale (vertical forces) - Easiest to notice as a force that turns the wheel in the direction of the turning. Kind of acts as a "counter force" against Fy, so sometimes when you have too much Fy, adding a bit more of Fz can make the wheel feel lighter again while turning (a risk of saturating the FFB signal though if you just keep adding these on top of each others to compensate).
    (B5) Mz scale (twisting forces) - Allows you to feel "grip level". Loosing grip will untwist the tires rubber, so adjusting this as high as is possible without creating the "center step" will help you feel better what the car is doing.
    As a general note for all of the above (Mz, Fx, Fy, Fz), when you start to feel a distinctive FFB step/notch near the center of the wheel, you have too much of something there (or too much of all of them ). Or then you might have just a "dull feel" -> then start to go lower starting with Fy.
    (B9) Fx smoothing - Smooths Fx induced FFB spikes.
    (B9) Fy smoothing - Smooths Fy induced FFB spikes.
    (B9) Fz smoothing - Smooths Fz induced FFB spikes.
    (B9) Mz smoothing - Smooths Mz induced FFB spikes.
    ^imo using smoothing feels a bit "artificial", but on some tires (like Lotus 49 old ones for example) these can be really useful. The need for using these will also greatly depend how you have configured the FFB otherwise. Think of these as a kind of "last reserve" for curing the excessive FFB spikes. Imo better use first a lower master scale and higher individual scales and see if that helps enough for the rattliness.


(B)FFB tuning - basics:

    leave all the advanced (A) parameters to default
    (B1) FFB to preferred level, 90 is a good value to start with
    (B2) check the tire force is at a reasonable level. 115 is a good start value.
    (B3) get familiar with "per wheel movement" value, try with minimum value and then with maximum value before actually adjusting it. I assume personal preferences differ on this a lot. Also, the car & tire combo has big meaning on what value here feels good. 0.00 is a safe bet, even though personally I like to keep this a tiny bit on the positive side. As an example, using a high negative value on street cars can make the feel a bit lost. Again, imo this should be a parameter we could adjust & save on per car basis.
    (B4) adjust to preferred value. See the descriptive text. For a base tuning you can put this to 50.
    (B5) Put all other individual scales to zero. Then start adding Mz, doesn't really matter where you start, just go by feel.. for example, drive for a while with a maximum value (200) to see the effect. Then lower until you find that sweet spot where you have no "center step/notch", only smooth transition from center to a bigger steering angle. Mz will give you that good "grip changing feel" on the corners / crests etc. I would suggest trying to get this as high as you feel comfortable with and don't get the "issues" of a too high value.
    (B6) Add Fx. For a starting value I'd suggest anything between 0.8-1.2 x Mz. On a small scale, Fx only creates a nice noise and feel to the FFB, putting in relatively big values can cause some issues like really heavy steering while "grip cornering".. but play around, this is a safe value to fiddle around with. Relatively difficult to ruin the FFB with Fx.
    (B7) With Fy, try with max value at first to see how all the feel has been drowned and the FFB is totally over saturated. So after that find a value you still can feel the Mz twisting, but also have your preferred feel while turning in to corners.
    (B8) Add Fz, this is harder to notice but you can play around with it at first trying very high and low values. This will be felt clearly when braking so take notice. I prefer usually something like ~2 x Fy. A nice test is to only run with 200 Fz and at least then you'll notice the effect. See the descriptive text above.
    ^finding the preferred combo of the scales takes some trial & error, but when you start with Mz you hardly can go wrong in the end. Just play around with all of them, and imo testing each individually at max value while having others at zero is a good idea, just to get the true meanings into your mind. And be aware of not over saturating the FFB feed and also creating that step near center. To desaturate the feel, lower the Fy first, then Fz, Fx, Mz. If you get 'lost', just start again and go with smaller steps
    (B9) If you have a good value for a certain scale, but it causes rattling/clipping spikes on the FFB screen, you can add the corresponding smoother for the force. Use as little as possible to maintain maximum detail & feel.


Issues and possible ways to fix:
< FFB oversaturated > Turn all spindle/individual scalers to zero. Add these back individually until satisfied. One good order to do this in: Mz -> Fx -> Fy -> Fz. The most important thing is to start with Mz so you have pure feel for what it does.
« Última modificação: Maio 09, 2015, 20: 13 por Tiago Fortuna »

Offline Ricardo Gama

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Offline Rui Paiva

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #2 em: Maio 08, 2015, 19: 33 »
Bem comecei a ler isto com atenção... Comecei a perder o fio á meada e desisti. É mais complicado que fazer o set do carro

Offline Vítor Costa

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #3 em: Maio 08, 2015, 19: 49 »
Logo à noite posto uns settings base q devem servir para começo Rui. Depois é mais uma questão de mexeres a olho e vês logo se gostas ou nao.

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Offline Lino Carreira

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #4 em: Maio 09, 2015, 19: 18 »
Isso era fixe Vitor visto teres como eu um T500, a minha cabeca doi so de olhar :P
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Offline Tiago Fortuna

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #5 em: Maio 09, 2015, 19: 32 »
Bem.. assim de repente, os settings que pus MAS com FFB e Tyre force a 100 para comecar segundo alguem que esteve comigo ontem e tem 1.

Nos drivers o T500 andam entre os 60 e os 70% segundo os varios testes que se encontram, portanto 65% e' um bom valor mas para saberem o valor especifico, Wheelcheck e tempo.

O periodic e o constant sempre li 100% e pela descricao estou de acordo.

Damper a 100 (assim se usarem um jogo ou usarem sempre recebem o que configurarem no jogo, de resto, e' o mesmo que estar desligado.

o Spr e' usado pelo pCARS para algumas coisas (uma descobri ontem):

- resistencia a 0kph (nao vou explicar isto novamente)
- soft lock (no fanatec pelo menos o gajo para n olimite dos graus de rotacao - para ser sincero nao sei se foi coincidencia mas mal nao faz)
- centrar o volante qd se retorna aos menus e pode dar jeito pq com o volante pode configurar-se valores nas opcoes e ainda mudamos qq coisa sem querer se o volante nao estiver centrado

Assim, e' configurar o spring a gosto mas eu diria que e' mesmo o minimo indispensavel. No meu volante esta' a 20.

Offline Tiago Fortuna

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #6 em: Maio 09, 2015, 20: 14 »
1o post com /edit

Offline Luís Branco

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #7 em: Maio 09, 2015, 20: 30 »
Mais umas dicas (podes adicionar ao 1º post se achares que vale a pena que eu depois apago este post e fica só no 1º do tópico)
It's like this: It depends on the car first and foremost. Second, it depends on how you have Fx, Fy, Fz and Mz setup (the ratio of each of these compared to the other).

For an "extreme" test, try the Ginetta G40. By default it's wheel is very center tight. Setup the FFB in the car setup tab to be Mz heavy, meaning you lower Fx, Fy and Fz while keeping Mz at 100. Something like this:

Fx = 80
Fy = 60
Fz = 60
Mz = 100

.. and increase either tire force or the spindle arm multiplier to compensate the for the weakened forces.

Now drive a few laps, make note of how your FFB goes limp when you "over turn" in a corner.. however note how the FFB actually goes light before your car clearly stops turning visually. If you are still making a good turn and you clearly have "bite" in the front tires, yet your FFB has gone light, then you know something is not correctly set with the spindle arm angle as the main suspect.

Too small value symptoms: Very tight in the center, FFB gets progressively (usually very quickly!) looser the more steering lock / the larger the slip angle becomes.

Too large value symptoms: Very loose in the center, FFB gets progressively heavier the more you turn. Very undetailed FFB at small steering angles, especially noticeable over kurbs/bumps.

"Just right" spindle arm angle symptoms: Very consistent FFB strength over the whole range of the wheel which exactly correlates to car behavior. If you clearly understeer visually, you'll clearly feel it in the FFB. The amount of optimum slip angle (where the front tires have the best "bite" and thus turning power) can be very clearly felt in the FFB. = all this usually results in a lot more understanding of the car and faster more consistent laptimes.
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Offline Tiago Fortuna

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #8 em: Maio 09, 2015, 20: 37 »
E ler aqui. Este forum so' precisa de registo e ha muito mais gente a ajudar do que eu provavelmente vou conseguir nos proximos dias.

Nao e' preciso editar. Basta manter a thread limpa de falatorio.

Offline Tiago Fortuna

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #9 em: Maio 12, 2015, 16: 11 »
Nao garanto que funcione mas, se quiserem efeitos enlatados, e' copiar isto para \my documents\project cars\FFB (FFB acho que tem mesmo que ser em maiusculas, nunca testei)

e dentro do FFBTwearks.xml copiar o que esta entre --------

Nota: Para quem ja tem os tweakers do Jack (ou outros) e' so modificar os valores. Mas depois nao se queixem se alterar alguma coisa.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>

<!-- Default force feedback tweakers. -->

   <value TopologyVersion="4" />

   <value DisableScrub="false" />
   <value DisableThrottleVibe="false" />
   <value DisableJolt="false" />
   <value DisableWheelSpin="false" />
   <value DisableGearChange="false" />
   <value DisableRumbleStrip="false" />


Offline João Borges

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Re: FFB - Sim é muito complicado
« Responder #10 em: Maio 12, 2015, 16: 29 »
Ja tenho 8!! diferentes documentos Word gravados, tudo com dicas de FFB que vou apanhando por aqui!  :crazy: Ainda nao tenho tido tempo de dar varias voltas seguidas e testar isto como deve ser, tem que ficar para o fim de semana. Porcaria dos exames.  :rtfm: :punish: Mas ao menos informacao nao me falta. :D

O potencial deste FFB e enorme e com a quantidade de opcoes que existem quase de certeza que da para ter um FFB como se deve ser. Ele neste momento ja esta bom e pouco mexi, nem quero imaginar quando tiver isto bem afinado...  :shok:

Um carro que me supreendeu bastante, mesmo so tendo feito umas 5 voltas, foi o McLaren F1. O som esta arrepiante e a forma como se vai buscar o carro em slide, nossa!  :shok:  Mas estava um pouco pesado e forte demais. La esta, tenho que gastar tempo a serio para configurar isto.  :help: Mas parece-me que este pCars vai longe e ate no departamento onde eu pensava que fosse mais "fraquinho", fisicas/FFB, esta a supreender tudo e todos.